EurasiaNet: What were the major recommendations of your February report to the UN?
Jahangir: I recommended that as a first step there should be mapping up [of atrocities,] as there have been numerous reports of massacres over the past 23 years.
Each report came from individual research, not an independent body. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. To form a basis on which to go forward and to take along the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, as well as to get the people of Afghanistan involved, an independent body needs to [produce a document].
EurasiaNet: Two years after the Bonn agreement on Afghanistan's political future, what is your assessment of the human rights situation?
Jahangir: There are serious concerns about human rights in Afghanistan. Very recently, I have looked at the [United States-led military coalition's] bombing in which a few children were killed.
Now it becomes a bit tricky for people in my position. Whom do we send this allegation to? Do we send it to the government of Afghanistan, do we send it to the coalition forces? These are questions that one really has to scramble with at this point.
EurasiaNet: How do you look at the issue of civilian casualties?
Jahangir: This goes beyond my mandate in the United Nations. So I can have no opinion except to say that once violence becomes an everyday norm there are chances of more extra-judicial killings.
EurasiaNet: How do you look at the demands for accountability of past actions, particularly for grave human rights violations or war crimes?
Jahangir: This is a very genuine demand, and I am a great advocate that impunity should not be given to people who have committed grave human rights violations. And surely in Afghanistan that has been done. The perpetrators are very much there and some of them could also be playing key roles in the government and that could really erode people's faith in rule of law and justice. I also noticed that the judicial system is quite raw.
I was there when one of the most publicized trials took place. This was a trial of a certain man known as "Zardad's dog" [because he supposedly bit people on the command of Zardad, a notorious mujaheddin commander]. In that trial I saw that the court was more of a Kangaroo court. The method of judgment was certainly very short of even the minimum standards for any trial. That could make the whole process very laughable. [For background see the EurasiaNet Insight archive].
EurasiaNet: What is the United Nation's official stand on this issue?
Jahangir: At the moment there is no position that they have taken but one of Secretary-General Annan's top deputies, the late Sergio Viera de Mello, did take up my recommendation and started an initiative towards setting up a panel of experts to draw guidelines, terms of reference, timetables and methodology for such a mapping-out.
EurasiaNet: What is your reaction to the criticism that the international community is ignoring past human rights abuses by Afghan warlords who are part of the government there?
Jahangir: This perception was very much present when I was in Afghanistan. The United Nations has its own explanations. They said that until people are convicted, they cannot be judged, and it is local institutions or initiatives that can convict them or acquit them.
EurasiaNet: How do you assess the work of the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission?
Jahangir: It is too early for me to say what kind of work they were doing, because when I was there, they were just starting off and they themselves admitted that they lacked a lot of a capacity. But as I look at their work over the past few months, apparently they have gone ahead. It is at least some kind of forum where people can go. It is still very much based in the Afghan capital, Kabul. A lot of people need mechanisms like that outside Kabul. It will take time and much more energy to [expand its writ].
EurasiaNet: Do you think that the lot of Afghan women has improved?
Jahangir: It is very difficult to imagine what they were going through during the Taliban period and I have not only met women inside Afghanistan but a lot of refugee Afghan women in Pakistan who feel that there has been a sense of relative freedom after the Taliban left and at least they can begin to hope.
At the same time there are a number of complaints that the speed with which they thought that things would change had not happened. They are still feeling physically insecure. Single women find it very difficult because of lack of employment and rampant poverty. They still complain of traditional values and thinking which are stumbling blocks towards their rights. [For background see the EurasiaNet Human Rights archive].
EurasiaNet: How do you look at the rights enshrined in the draft constitution?
Jahangir: As far as the rights are concerned, I am not being utopian but I think that it's sufficient enough and if I were an Afghan I would live with it.
Controversy will not come regarding rights but on the manner of sharing political powers. [For background see EurasiaNet's Loya Jirga coverage].
EurasiaNet: How optimistic are you about the future of human rights in Afghanistan?
Jahangir: Well I am not optimistic about the future of human rights anywhere in the world, leave alone Afghanistan. There is an isolated sense that has to addressed by the Afghans themselves and they have to get rid of the many years of indoctrination by competing ideologies.
However, I think that Afghanistan will at some point turn around, and land on more peaceful, more cohesive ground. It is very fragile there and we can see that there is some turmoil. But what I find quite amazing is the will of the people to ensure that they don't lose this opportunity.
Abubaker Saddique is an independent journalist specializing in South Central Asian affairs.
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